Tim 0:03
Tim Goldstein, Autistic Adult, and your host for Life in a Neurotypical Universe, where we take a look at life from the perspective of an autistic adult. 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Life in the Neurotypical Universe. Today we have with us Professor Sol Smith, and he is a professor, an author, an autism and ADHD life coach, a neurodiversity consultant, and has multiple advanced degrees. And his most recent book was The Autistic Guide to Self-Discovery, Flourishing as a Neurodivergent Adult. 

So, Sol, welcome to the podcast. So glad to have you. And tell us a little bit about yourself, and how did you get into this whole neurodiversity craziness? 

Sol 1:04
Yeah, no, thank you for having me, for sure. And, yeah, gosh, that's a broad question. I hope that I hope you expect a rambly answer. 

It, I always knew that I was a little different. 

And I guess just because of the way I was raised, I always saw my differences as being positives. I looked at things a little differently than other people. I didn't do my schoolwork the same way as other people. And I took a certain pride in how I did approach things. And just as an example, for a long time, I used to really like the grade that I liked to get was a B, because I felt like a B said that I knew what I was doing, but I was doing it my own way. And I wasn't doing it the way the teacher told me to. I was doing it my own way. And, you know, whether or not that's true or not, it made as much sense as any other grade. So I just kind of always valued that. And then I, you know, as an adult, I got really, really into college. You know, I just got addicted to going to college and probably because everything's set up for you in college and predictable. Like, you know, they set up these little goals and by definition, they're accomplishable. So you can accomplish them and you can get praise for them and you get feedback. And life isn't really like that. Um, so I just kind of stayed in college, you know, in teaching and then also getting degrees. Um, anyway, so I got really fascinated with different subjects at different times and I got really into psychology for a while and, uh, really into, into autism and ADHD. I just started researching it like crazy. And I started kind of tracking some similarities between what I was reading and my own experience. Um, and, uh, when, when it, when the rubber really hit the really gripped the road was, uh, during the pandemic, um, I, I did a podcast and my whole plan with this podcast was to try to get, try to encourage people to sort of reframe their education. And, uh, reframe it to sort of take control out of the school system, uh, that, that can make us like, give us all these surrogate goals of, you know, grades and, and all of this stuff. And, and to instead really take an interest in themselves and interest in their learning and take control of this thing. Um, because otherwise you're just kind of getting involved with a very impersonal system. So it was like 14 episodes and it was like these sort of stepping stones that was supposed to give us an idea of like how we've been socialized, how our, you know, different socializations have, have like sort of hijacked different parts of us and, and why we, uh, you know, get caught up in this whole machinery of society. And, uh, at the time that I recorded the last episode, I realized, um, that I was describing how to think like more like an autistic person, um, that it was like deconstructing things and unsocializing yourself. I was trying to convince people to think more like me. And it was ultimately, um, you know, removing sensory filters, trying to experience things more fully and, uh, trying to see things from multiple angles, lateral thinking, seeing more possibilities. And I was like, oh, this sounds just like autism, but, but different. Um, and then, yeah, then I really had to, to, to deep dive. 

Tim 4:30
So it was not until well into adulthood that you came to recognize that you are one of us autistics. 

Sol 4:40
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess, I guess in college, I realized I was dyslexic and, and, and that was a shocker because I was a literature major at the time. And, uh, yeah, I was supposed to read like five novels a week, and this was just not possible. Um, I read very slowly and I, I recognized from sending emails to friends and back then your, your, you know, your typos were not auto-corrected. And, um, one of my friends who was, um, majoring in special education pointed out to me that, that it was pretty clear to her that I was dyslexic, how I was typing. And I said, I think it's just, that's how my fingers are moving. And it was not just how my fingers were moving. Um, which was a lame excuse anyway. Um, but sort of like the way that I managed all of my literature classes was, um, you know, without being able to read all the texts in any given week is I would, you know, usually it was essay questions. And I would just sort of pivot the topics towards something that I knew towards something I was like really interested in at the time. So like if I had to read, you know, Jane Eyre for a class and I had not finished Jane Eyre, um, but I had participated in discussion. So I knew kind of what was going on. Um, but I had been really into Taoism that week. Then I would write an essay about Taoism through the lens of Jane Eyre and just create this smoke screen of information that, uh, with the purpose of having the teacher go like, wow, this guy's really thought about this. This is interesting. And for the most part, it worked. And, um, you know, now I look back at that and see that there was a very autistic way to manage that my workload, you know, our special interests fit everywhere. Don't they? I mean, everybody wants to know everything about our special interests and you're going to hear about it and you're going to hear about it in detail. 

Tim 6:25
And I, I know you want to know these things. 

Sol 6:27
Right. Right. Exactly. And then also points to how we see all those connections between things and, uh, you know, and in the school system, for example, they just, they like to isolate all these as different subjects and as if they never touch. Um, and of course they do. Yeah, definitely. 

I'm big on communication and I, I recognized when I was diagnosed and I was late diagnosis, it was 54 when I was diagnosed and my working theory before that, I recognized I was different just like, like you did and my working theory was the world was stupid. Yeah. Yeah. It's not an effective working theory. It kind of fit the facts, but it's not effective. 

Tim 7:09
Right. Right. It's not effective. 

Sol 7:11
And I came to realize afterwards, I happened to be involved in doing a lot of, uh, communication training and, and such. And I realized it was ineffective communication that my style as an autistic of how I communicated 

just didn't resonate with most of the world and their style just didn't translate into my brain and into what they were actually truly expressing. Yeah. I was at a car wash this a couple of days ago with my wife and we have a membership annual pass for the car wash, automatic car wash. 

Tim 7:49
And I pull up to the, the, the box that you slip your card into, to make the car wash do its, its thing. 

Sol 7:58
And I pull the card out and the, the thing tells me you are prepared to enter the car wash and, and you, I'm going exactly with this one. I was obviously not prepared because my window was rolled down because I just stuck the card inside the box. I, there is no way I was prepared to go in the car wash. Now the car wash was prepared to receive me. Right. 

Tim 8:21
But that's not what the message says. 

Sol 8:24
Right. Right. I wouldn't phrase it that way. That's really frustrating. 

Tim 8:29
It would be just as easy for a say, we are now prepared for you. Yeah. Which is the, which is the truth of the story was the mechanism was prepared for me. I was obviously not prepared because my window was rolled down and I took me a lot of years to figure out, you don't go into a car wash with your window rolled down. 

Sol 8:45
Right. Right. Yeah. No, I know what you mean. Like, yeah, the communication is, um, that was always a baffling, uh, point for me too. Um, and it's, uh, I, I feel like, um, you know, anytime that somebody says, well, everybody knows what that means. 

Um, which translates into, I couldn't explain it to you if my life ended on it, but, but everybody 

Tim 9:14
So I'm just going to just fluff it off as you're the issue. Not, not the fact that you never define it. 

Sol 9:19
Yeah, exactly. And I think that, that, you know, because, because neurotypicals essentially what they do, they build a lot of heuristics and, and in communication, like they do this too, they jump to a second level of meaning from their words, um, rather than dwelling on the exact meanings. So just for example, um, I used to do this thing where I taught, uh, media literacy and we would look at advertisements and we would just look at print advertisements and I would kind of walk them through. This is how we're going to practice analyzing them. And I'd say there's three levels to examine here. The first level is just literally, what do you see? Just list the literal things in the picture. The second level is what is the intended meaning? This is the message that the advertisers want you to go away with. And it's pretty easy for anybody to get to catch. And I say, and then the third level is what are the cultural stereotypes that are being used to communicate this message? And I thought this was a brilliant way for me to do this. Right? So I go up there and I show a print ad for, for Coca-Cola and I go, okay, what do we see in this ad here? The first level, what do we see? And people would say, Coke is delicious and refreshing. And I'd be like, no, no. What do you see in the ad? And they'd say, uh, happy people, people love Coke. And I said, no, no, that's level two. What do you see? Pretty girls like Coke. And I'm like, no, I'm like, you're seeing a girl in a swimsuit holding a Coke smiling. And they'd be like, 

oh, and they just would jump right over that. They're looking like directly to the message and like ad after ad, they would do that. They would jump right over the literal meaning and to the, the intended meaning. And I was like, man, what's going on with this? And, you know, I just, it's amazing that when you don't know what you don't know. 

Um, it's really simple to me. It amazes me that most humans can actually communicate with each other. Yeah. Because I was reading in, in your book and, and I'll admit, I didn't get to read the whole thing, but I said, I read through different parts of it and they're very good. I would definitely recommend anybody take the time to pick it up and read it. And you were going through of the kind of thing. And, and I have a good friend in Australia, Dr. Lutza Ireland, who I collaborate with on, on a lot of things. And, and she is autistic and ADHD. 

And so it comes down to assumptions that people make when they're speaking. And they're assuming that you're in their brain and have the exact same assumption. Right. Right. Her name is Dr. Lutza Ireland. That's her, her name. Ireland is her surname. So she was at a conference recently, a matter of fact, just the other day, and she had on a conference badge, which had her name. And then it had the affiliation of her company that she was there representing. And people kept coming up to her and saying, well, where are you from? 

Well, I met a business oriented type thing. So what am I going to tell you where I'm from? And she would keep saying, I'm coming, I'm from you guides. ai, which is her company. 

Well, she finally found out afterwards because people would walk away kind of baffled. And she got down to the point of getting frustrated with it and just pointing to the badge and going here, this is where I'm from. 

Tim 12:33
Right. 

Sol 12:34
They were assuming she was from Ireland when nobody else had the country of origin on their badge. That just happens to be her last name. 

That's really funny. 

Tim 12:49
But again, it's that the question she was trying to draw without them saying, if they said, what is your country of origin or what country did you come from, or somehow refer to geography, she probably would have caught that they were trying to say because she is originally from Hungary and then lived in the UK. 

Sol 13:14
So she lives in Australia now. So she has an accent according to the Australians. 

And so they knew that she wasn't from Australia originally, but they weren't saying it in a manner that actually connected because in the context as she took it, they were asking about where are you from? 

Tim 13:33
This was a business oriented group. 

Sol 13:35
So where are you from? Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Like she's like, and see, that's yeah. Cause autistics are very context sensitive, you know? Um, the context is, it really changes everything. And, uh, yeah, neurotypicals have this sort of shared notion of what the context is. And that's, yeah, that's a really interesting one there because, and also when people ask me where I'm from, I asked my wife this the other day, I said, when somebody asked where I'm from, how much detail do I give? And she goes, what do you mean? And I said, I said, to me, it's like, I feel like nobody knows me if I don't tell them well, I was born in Texas, but I grew up mostly in California, but then I moved back to Texas. Then I moved to Michigan. Then I moved here. And I said, and do I have to cover how many cities I lived in? And she said, you don't have to cover like any of that. And I was like, oh, like I had like, it just like, and like in her case, where are you from? Um, yeah, again, like Hungary, UK, Australia, I would feel like you kind of have to cover a lot of those things in order to arrive at, you know, a suitable answer in her mind. Well, that was always my approach too. And I finally came up with a concept I call the three, the three degrees of, of information. Okay. Okay. And the way it works is at the, the lowest or highest level, however you want to think about it is the social level, which we could put into any context and we could make it fit in any context, but we'll just say social. We're at a party and somebody asks you, what do you do? Right. I mean, common, common party question. Right. And I would normally tell them my entire history of, I've worked in 27,000 different industries. I've been in 12 jobs I've done. Well, it finally dawned on me that what they actually want is just enough to fill in the blank. They actually don't want to understand where, what do you do particularly? They just want to be able to put a label on it. Right. So I, but now I just say, I work for Google. That's all I say. 

Tim 15:41
I work for Google. There you go. I don't tell them what I do for Google. 

Sol 15:44
I don't tell them the details about how I got into Google. I don't tell them anything about my career in it for the last 25 years or my career in owning my own business and manufacturing company and jewelry store and because they don't care is the answer. Yeah. Do they, do they ever say, what do you do for Google? 

Tim 16:01
Or do they just go, Oh, Google 99% of the time it's like, Oh, you work for Google. 

Sol 16:06
And it's yeah. Yeah. 

Tim 16:07
Yeah. I work for that company that treats us like we're, we're Madonnas and, and just. Spoils. Yeah. Yes. That's, that's the company. Right. And that's usually all they want to know. 

Sol 16:18
Right. 

Tim 16:19
So that's the, the top level of information. Then the next level would be you're talking to somebody at the, at the party and something comes up and you find out that there is some level of shared interest between it. 

Sol 16:30
Okay. Okay. 

Tim 16:31
It's not another autistic you're talking to. So it's not that they want all the details of everything about it. They just want to know, like, I, I, I'm into maker. Yeah. I was a maker before makers were, it was a term back when we just call us geeks. So I've got 3d printers around the house. Right. Right. So maybe we're talking about 3d printers and they don't want to know everything about all the details about 3d printing and 3d printers. They just want to know, Oh yeah, yeah. I got a 3d printer. I got one of those, those filament ones. And one of them resin ones. That's it. I mean, okay. It's more detailed than I make things. Oh, cool. What do you make? Well, I'm 3d printing and I've got this kind of printer, this kind of printer. Good. They're happy. That's all they want to know now. 

Occasionally you run into somebody or maybe you're actually planning now. 

Sol 17:18
Oh, geez. I've always wanted to get into 3d printers and I never knew where to start. Now they actually want the full, full load. 

Tim 17:27
Right. 

Sol 17:27
And my, my approach to this is I draw this as concentric circles with the, the, the outer, actually the concentric circles, I shouldn't say they're concentric circles. They're nested circles all touching a tangent on one edge. 

Tim 17:43
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you have two circles or tangent. No, that doesn't make sense. Cause you have to have a straight line to have tangent. 

Sol 17:48
So you have two circles that are all touching on the bottom edge. So the circles go up bigger and bigger. So at the, the, the, uh, outermost circle is all the details. Right. It's got everything in it. The next circle down is that mid level and the smallest circle is the social. Just what do you want to So then I, I draw next to it cause they're touching all on the bottom is the way I stack them. So there's, there's two triangles. There's a triangle on one side, a triangle on the other side, but they point in opposite directions. One points up, one points down. 

Tim 18:20
And they're both colored with green at the base, going to red at the tip. 

Sol 18:26
So trying to indicate that you want to be in the green zone, you don't want to be in the red zone, but it depends where you're coming from. If you're at the social level, the green is at the bottom and all they want to know is the, just give me the high. Just give me the, like, so I can put a label on you, pigeonhole you in my brain and move on in the party to the next person. Right. Right. But if you're talking to about doing something with somebody, you're going to take the trip with them. You're going to develop a piece of software with them. You're going to write a book with them. Well, now we flip the other one around and we don't want that just trite little story piece. We want, like, give me the details and give me the whole enchilada of the thing. 

Tim 19:08
Yeah. Yeah. And I found that to be effective. And my advice to people is always start with the minimum amount and then just say, do you want to know more? Yeah, there you go. Okay. 

Sol 19:18
So that's my, my way of navigating. And it's, it's, it's worked much better than my old theory of everybody was stupid. 

Tim 19:25
Yeah. It's worked far better. 

Sol 19:29
Yeah, no, that's, yeah, there you go. That works. Yeah, for sure. And it is amazing that people can communicate together at all. I mean, yeah. 

So this is even one, one that's in my, that's in my book and it kind of relates to kind of relates to the one that you were saying about the, the, the, the name tag and that I was at a grocery, I was at a target with my wife and she's an artist. Right. She, she does a bunch of art, but this, this one day we're at target and she's buying these, these washable Crayola markers. And this seemed really weird to me because I know that she gets really nice artistic equipment. I've never seen her buy something like this. So I said, why are you buying those, those markers? And she goes, Oh, they, they're not expensive. It's not a big deal. Like they're $4. And I was like, no, yeah, it's fine that it's $4. I just, why are you buying them? She goes, I didn't think it was a big deal for me to buy them. And I was like, it's not a big deal. You know, we, we've covered that. 

Tim 20:31
Like, like, why are you buying them? 

Sol 20:33
You're used to her going to the art store and buying markers that start at $4 per marker, not for the box of markers. So I finally said, okay, you usually use alcohol-based markers that are really nice. I've never seen you purchasing washable Crayola markers. And she goes, Oh, I'm taking this online class in the, and they recommended do buying, they recommended using three pieces of media that you've never done before. So I'm using this for that. And I was like, well, see, I'm not crazy. This was a weird thing for you to do. And she's like, they're just markers. And it's like, like, this was definitely out of the pattern of normal. And it like, it seemed really reasonable, but she felt as if she was being questioned, you know, or challenged in this purchase. And instead it's just like, like, this is just a really odd thing for you to be doing. You know, it's like watching a vegetarian order a burger or something and being, you know, Oh, what's going on here? Like, you're not necessarily challenging their, their legitimacy as a vegetarian, but you want to know, like, this is, you have broken a pattern that I've noticed about you. 

Tim 21:37
Right, right. My wife is ADHD. 

Sol 21:40
She was also late diagnosis after I was diagnosed as autistic. And this is a common thing that you just described that we go through all the time. I ask about something because I'm just curious, because it just seems different or odd or unusual. Not that I am at all trying to demean her or question the motives or, or question the money being spent on it or anything, but simply because this is something you've never done before. So what, this is unusual. Just help me understand what. Right. Right. And she gets defensive. Very quickly. 

Tim 22:16
Yeah. Yeah. 

Sol 22:17
It was an ADHD pattern. I, I believe. 

Tim 22:20
Yeah. 

Sol 22:21
And, and then the conversation spirals downward from there, because I, I'm going for the, like, the detail understanding of why, why are you doing this? And, and she's already got in her mind that I'm, I'm questioning her. Right. Right. Right. And, and such to do such whatever the thing happens to be, which is not weird, too weird. It's like buying Crayola markers. It's like four bucks. Yeah. Who gives a crap if you want, if you want them, great, buy them. Big deal. But I'm just like curious because you never buy like crappy markers. You always buy like really quality markers. Yeah. And see, okay. You brought up something that like, okay. ADHD and autism, they co-occur very frequently. Right. Like it's something like if you're, if you're autistic, you're more likely to be autistic and ADHD. And there's a lot of different ideas as to why this is the case. And of course we haven't done enough studies. Like, is it just a co-occurring thing or is it because, um, lots of traits of autism just mimic the same kind of like executive function issues. My theory, my pet theory is it's because we're shacking up with a lot of ADHD years. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. Is. Yeah. Almost every autistic is with an ADHD year. It somehow just works better. Yes. Yes. 

Tim 23:35
Then, then it does with other groups. 

Sol 23:39
Yeah. I think we have, we have enough of a shared history of, you know, social, um, uh, isolation. Um, and so we understand each other. We have enough of a difference of communication that we're patient with each other. And, um, I think that the autistic person, when the two are in agreement, I think the autistic person person adds a sense of depth to the understanding of the ADHD person, which they find fascinating when they're in a mood to find things fascinating, that it really tickles that part of their brain that gets interested in stuff. And the ADHD person can really act as a conduit to connect the autistic person to the world. You know, they can explain the, um, what's going on socially here. They can explain the friends group. They can explain what's going on at your job that you didn't realize was going on. And, and so like when they're on confluence, it works great. But when there is a communication difference, it's very hard to resolve. Um, because the ADHD or yeah, they're used to having to be defensive, um, from, you know, a lifetime of being chided. And the autistic person has a hard time locating, why are we like fighting about this, you know? Um, and, and then once they're fighting, then they want to discuss why they're fighting. And this feels like we're rehashing it. This feels like we're bringing it up again. 

Tim 24:56
Right, right. I want to know why, why we're fighting and what, what this is about, because it doesn't seem like this should make any sense to fighting. 

Sol 25:02
And I was actually supporting what you were saying. I was just stating it in a different manner than you stated it. It actually was agreement with you, not, not disagreement with you. But yeah. And the ADHD is like, why are you still holding onto this? We're done. 

And it's kind of like the two of you fall through the ice and the ADHD is like, we got to get out of the ice. And I'll just say, what, how did we get so far out on the ice? I don't want to do this again. You know, and I feel like we almost feel like you can pause the show and the actors can step out of character and discuss the scenes at play, but the ADHD, they don't do it. Like they're still in character. Like they're a method actor and they just keep arguing with you. And it's, and it's like, wait, well, no, no, no. We're talking about them, not us. And, you know, and it's, it's a frustrating dynamic. Once, once they disagree, it's very frustrating, but in confluence, I think that they really compliment each other. I would agree very much. My wife and I went to marriage counseling to try and work through some of these things. And after, I don't know, way too many sessions that I felt like we're, we're a waste of time. But the, the counselor finally said, I think the best thing you two can do is get divorced. 

So we immediately fired her. 

Tim 26:17
Well, there you go. 

Sol 26:20
And we've been married 40 years now. That was probably 10 years ago. And she said that the best thing we can do is divorce was because she just did not understand the autistic presentation and thought process versus the ADHD presentation and thought process. So she, she was approaching this as if we were two non-neuro distinct individuals and trying to deal with, well, how do you feel about this? Right. And I always say, never ask an autistic person how they feel because we don't know how we feel. Ask us what we think. And we can tell you like reams about what we But by definition, we don't understand how we feel. 

Tim 27:02
If we understood how we feel that we would probably wouldn't be autistic. 

Sol 27:06
Right. Right. And a lot of marriage counselors will fall back on like, I think this is a values conflict. And it's like, no, this is not a values conflict. Like, this is just the mechanism that's, that's not working. Right. You know, it's just far too often. It's just the mechanism. And we need you to like be an intermediary here. And it's almost as if like, if, if you learn a third language and that's why I think nonviolent communication, if both people were to adopt that, like just one other type of language that's out of the norm for both parties might be a better bridge to kind of put a cushion there between people. And get some patience when things get heated. But yeah, I can see how that would happen. I think a lot of therapists are not ready for autistic customers. 

Tim 27:50
No, no. I would say more are not ready than are ready is the truth. Yeah. 

Sol 27:56
And I don't know if you've ever read the book. There's actually a very interesting book that was written in the early 80s, if I remember the timing correct. So it was before we knew about Asperger's, which my guess would be if we still use that terminology, you would probably identify with that. I definitely identify with that. 

Tim 28:14
Probably so. Yeah. 

Sol 28:16
And this woman was a couples counselor in Silicon Valley in the early 80s when Silicon Valley still produced silicone chips that didn't software hadn't happened yet. It was still was Silicon Valley. And she called it silicone syndrome. And if you were just substitute autism for the word silicone syndrome, just with a find and replace in the entire book, it would be a perfect view of couples where in this case, back in the 80s, it was mostly men that were the engineers and autistic and mostly the women that were We now know that it could be a virgin. We know that it could be either gender in either role. Right. Right. Yeah. But presentation-wise, yeah. Yeah. 

Tim 29:02
So it's very interesting that it goes back much further than we're saying that there's been this blossoming of autism. 

Sol 29:10
And she nailed it exactly that most of these engineers were autistic. They were Asperger style. And they built the chip industry that technology clicks on. I mean, it makes sense. You know, like it's easy to. I try really hard not to get too heavy on raising expectations for autistics. Just like, you know, when you say, oh, autism is my superpower. Like, I think that that is just as unfair as infant and infantilizing it because, you know, we basically, you know, don't want to perform at the levels that we're usually expected to perform in. Just for example, like, I don't know, you watch a TV show with an autistic coded character, like, you know, house or whatever. Like, you see them pulling off these great stunts of thinking or whatever. And but the other thing is that they're working 16 hour days, five days a week. And that's not something an autistic person is going to want to do. Like, they would be burned out like crazy. 

Tim 30:13
Right. Well, it actually suited me for quite a long while. 

Sol 30:16
I fit that pattern. 

Tim 30:18
Oh. 

Workaholism was my. Was it that was your. 

Sol 30:23
Safe space. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that some people have. 

Tim 30:27
Yeah, get into that. 

Sol 30:29
Because I had control. I mean, you think about it when you're at work, you have far. Well, depending upon what your your job and role is. That's true. But in the in the more white collar professions that you and I are both in. 

Tim 30:40
Yeah. 

Sol 30:40
You have more control of your environment than you do in a social environment. Yeah. And lots of. Well, that's true because you're playing a role and playing a role is usually pretty easy. Yeah. And then. Yeah, you're right. 

Tim 30:55
You have to focus on and what you don't have to focus on. 

Sol 30:58
Now, we get tripped up by some of the nuances sometimes, but the overall general themes are quite straightforward. I was hired to teach classes. 

Tim 31:08
Let's say. 

Sol 31:09
Right, right, right. 

Tim 31:09
Right. Okay, well, that's good. I go in. I teach my class. I can teach classes. 

Sol 31:14
I can teach classes all day long. It's once I get into this hierarchy of coworkers that I would get in trouble. 

Tim 31:22
And I have many times and been fired so many times that I wrote a book about interviewing because of that. 

Sol 31:32
And it just so it amazes me that I've been fired for being too honest. Oh, and I believe you. Like, I believe you. Like, it's I was once told that my my student evaluations were so high that it was a red flag. Right. I mean, it's that kind of thing. You're being called out because you were precise in giving feedback as as was probably needed, to be honest with you. Right. Right. And though that's not socially acceptable, even though it's correct. Yeah. Yeah. 

It's I think a lot of times it's because we're too honest, even if that's not what we get told. You know, it's gosh, I don't remember where I was going with this. Oh, yeah. Because you were talking about the silicone syndrome in the 80s. Like, it is very interesting to look back and see evidence of, you know, what seems to be autism in the past. Like, we can get really hepped up on, you know, characters from the past that were clearly autistic. Like, you know, Mozart's a really good example. It's hard to imagine somebody with his acuity for writing music without it being some sort of a savant syndrome situation. The way that Plato describes Socrates, if Plato didn't invent Socrates, at least, sounds like Socrates was autistic. He even had what seemed to be petite mal seizures. 

And if Plato did invent Socrates, he clearly knew somebody autistic in his life. 

And so I guess what I'm saying is it's easy to look at the very positive thing, contributions that have been made and assign it to autistic thinkers because the lack of socialization can lead to innovation very easily. Socrates, if you're not socialized into seeing things through that lens of common assumptions that people are making, and instead you're doing lateral thinking and seeing lots of different solutions for lots of different situations, then it presupposes that you might lead to innovative problem solving and innovative solutions. But, of course, it has to be the right confluence at the right time with the right opportunity, and that's difficult to make. Right, right. I agree completely. The way I like to think about it is I think a lot of people will approach a topic with a preconceived notion around the topic, and then they will only dig down deep enough to accomplish the task that they need to accomplish with it. 

Tim 34:18
Right, right. 

Sol 34:20
As autistics, I think we do it the other way around. We collect all the facts. It's like, tell me all the answers. Tell me what about this? What about if it's like What's the edge case that happens if it's here? Do you mean that it's in the box, or do you mean that the box is sitting in the room, or do you mean? We want to give us all the details. And then we create our own overarching concept to fit the facts. Right. And because we don't start with the presupposed concept that everybody else is using, we can come to a different conclusion. 

And as you say, it now comes down to has to be a confluence of a lot of things that, A, people have to be willing to listen to this different conclusion. 

Tim 35:01
Let's hire people who think differently because we want to be innovative, but let's just keep telling them that they're wrong. 

Sol 35:06
Right. Right. And yeah, the presupposed stuff is, one way that we really defy that is by very often just questioning the framework in which the problems are occurring. And this is one reason why I always find multiple choice tests so damn frustrating. You know, I think that lots of autistics say, oh, but I'm so good at multiple choice tests. And I say, yeah, but is it because you decode how the test is working and you eliminate answers? And then, yeah, I'm like, OK, so you're just pattern finding. That's different than being good at answering the question. So my example that I give that's in the book is it's something like I'm just going to simplify the numbers. There's like a word problem that says a baker can bake 20 cakes in 40 minutes. How long does it take him to bake 40 cakes? And I hear this and I go, well, 40 minutes. And they're like, no, that 20 cakes was 40 minutes. How long does it take to bake 40 cakes? And I go, well, how big is his oven? 

Tim 36:08
My answer would be I can't tell you because you haven't given me enough detail to be able to extrapolate an answer. 

Sol 36:15
Is he in a commercial bakery? 

Tim 36:17
Is he doing it at maxed out capacity per hour? Was it the hardest he could work? 

Sol 36:22
Is he going to burn out and do slower the second hour? How big are the cakes? Can they be cupcakes? You know, like there's way too many variables. Right. And then the neurotypical reaction is to go, you're overthinking it. And that's fine. But then sometimes they throw in a trick question and we were supposed to know that one was a trick. So, like, it's weird how they assume that, like, these certain facts in place. I've never seen a question on a test that has had enough context for me to actually be confident in the actual answer. I can be confident that this is what they want me to say, but it feels like I'm harming myself because there's so much wiggle room. 

Tim 37:03
It's funny. 

Sol 37:03
In my career job, I often end up evaluating questions that are part of training programs. I work as a technical curriculum developer at Google. Okay. 

So, I'm the worst nightmare for somebody writing these things. I bet. Because 

one example was they were asking about a way to test if a particular region failed in your multiple region implementation. And how would you test it? Well, they didn't mention, is this in production or is this in a test environment lab where I'm, you know, trying to figure out what I'm going to do? Or am I testing the real production version? Because even if you look at the white papers on how to test it, they have different methodology if you're in production versus if you're sitting in a test environment. In a test environment, you can just, like, blow crap up. Nobody cares. And we can test like it really blew up. In the production environment, no, we have to simulate that as closely as we can. So, if you don't tell me in the question which environment I'm in, how am I supposed to choose between the different answers, which they had an answer that would cover each case, but they didn't give you the detail to know which one you should apply? 

Tim 38:29
Right. Right. Oh, God. See? 

Sol 38:32
No, and it goes back to your car wash example that the car wash- It was ready for me. 

Tim 38:38
Yes. Yeah. It was ready for you. 

Sol 38:39
It had the proper way to phrase it, but it did not. And we just, again, you know, it's that shared assumption that all basics have. You know, they sync up their brains together to have this common sort of base reality of sorts. And there's nothing wrong with that. Obviously, it's incredibly adaptive. But, yeah, but it's still, it can just be factually incorrect, and they don't mind that at all. Right, right, right. Well, here, I've got a question for you, just talking about neurotypical and that kind of thing. I've struggled now. I use this concept I call the neurocloud to try and explain neurodiversity, because in the neurocloud, all humans are in the neurocloud. You don't get out. If you're breathing, you don't get out of the neurocloud. Because a lot of people think that it's only those people that are neurodiverse. Right, right. No, no, neurodiversity is the concept of all ways that human brains work. 

Tim 39:39
Yeah, right. 

Sol 39:40
So, now where I was struggling with this is, and the idea of using the cloud is just like in a cloud. There's not delineations where you can draw and say, this is this piece and this is this piece, and pieces kind of move around and float, but there are areas. It's like it's dark over there, and it looks like rain is falling out of that part of the cloud, but there's lightning over on this side of the cloud. Right, right. But it's not clear cut either. 

Tim 40:05
Right. 

Sol 40:06
And I think that neurodiversity is like that. It's not clear cut, even though the medical world tries to make it. It's really not. 

Tim 40:14
Yeah, yeah. 

Sol 40:15
But the problem I had is, we look at, I guess we start with, and I use the term neurodistinct, not neurodivergent, because I think neurodivergent is a crappy word. Okay. Just from the standpoint of using the advertising model, like you were holding it up, it would be a bad advertising word. It's like people can't pronounce it. It isn't self-explanatory. It's got way too many syllables to it, and it sounds like a PhD word, so you're obviously talking down to me already because you're using this big, huge seven-syllable word. So I just came up with neurodistinct, because I think we all, as humans, want to be distinct in some fashion, whether it's our careers, our hobby, our way we dress. I mean, whatever. We want some level of distinction. And it's almost self-definition. Neuro had brain thinking distinct. Oh, there's something about you that stands out different. Cool. Okay. So anyway, I just stick with that. And those that want to go with it, great. Join the crowd, because there's lots of us going that way. And those who want to be neurodivergent, well, be weird. I don't care. 

Tim 41:20
You can be wherever you want to be. And if you tell me that's what you want, I will identify you that way. That's fine. Right, right. Yeah, we'll find the ground somewhere, but I like that. 

Sol 41:29
So we started out with neurodiversity really, it was focused on autism only when Judy Singer first wrote her seminal paper that kind of outlined what neurodiversity was about. But it was about the autism community. Yeah. And then it grew as we started recognizing there were other thinking styles that were, we'll just say, non-conventional. Yeah. And I'll say there was a bunch of neurodistinct conditions because we medicalized all this stuff. I also think there's a lot of them that people that fall into the neurodistinct area of the neuro cloud, but we don't have names for their conditions. They're just weird. We often call them artists. 

Tim 42:08
Right, right. 

Sol 42:09
I mean, nothing wrong with artists. I love artists, but they have to think, they can see things differently. And that's why they can do what they do is because they bring that unique perspective to it. 

Tim 42:19
Yeah. 

Sol 42:20
But I've always struggled with the idea that neurotypical is a neurotype because I know lots of people who you would judge them as being neurotypical, at least in how whatever environments you are interacting with them. But as you get to know them, it's quite obvious that they aren't. Right. And it just didn't work for me. So for 10 years, I've been struggling with this one. It finally dawned on to me last year. I was out hiking. I live in Colorado, so I was at 8,000 feet. So maybe it was lack of oxygen. 

Tim 42:55
I don't know. It could. 

Sol 42:58
But I think neurotypical isn't a neurotype. I think neurotypical is more of a more like a political party 

where there's a core shared set of beliefs, but nobody believes every one of the tenets of the every plank of the political party. But I align much better with that one than I do with that one over there. Right, right. And that way, it fits because I take my wife as an example of ADHD. ADHDs tend to be, particularly female ADHD it seems, tends to be very emotionally intuitive and sensitive to the emotions of others. They pick it up very quickly and easily, which is why it works good in a relationship because they can explain to us what's going on when we're just oblivious that it's even going on. 

Tim 43:48
Right. Yeah. 

Sol 43:50
So she would very frequently in a work setting or something, be identified as being neurotypical because she's always trying to not offend and stay on the, she can sense emotionally that it's like pushing the edges. So she'll back away and do these behaviors that we would ascribe to neurotypical. But she's ADHD. I mean, she is not neurotypical. There's no way. So I've just come to the conclusion that I think that everybody is different, has different brains. Some people's processing and way that they present aligns closer to the tenants that we decide are the neurotypical norm. But if you go to a company that is heavily populated with neurodistinct individuals, I had done some training for a company in Australia that was a game A game studio. So they created 

electronic PC console type games. So about 50% of the workforce is tech geeks and about 50% of the workforce is artists. And they're convinced that out of between the artists and the tech geeks that probably over half the company is neurodistinct of one manner or another. 

Tim 45:11
Right. 

Sol 45:12
Which is probably quite accurate, I would guess. 

Tim 45:15
Which is probably quite accurate, I would guess. 

Sol 45:16
Yeah, yeah. So their norm is actually closer to what you or I would go into and say, this makes sense. These people actually are like asking smart questions and such. 

So neurotypical to me is it's not a neurotype. It's a shared agreement, just like a political party is, but it can vary. I mean, as we take political parties from country to country, the makeup and the mix can vary. This is, so to me, that just. Yeah. Fits better. Yeah. That makes some sense. Like because essentially, you know, and not to, not to put anybody down too much, but it's, I always think that the most autistic story is the emperor's new clothes. 

Tim 46:03
Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Sol 46:05
Yeah. And you have all these people that they, they have agreed that we, that hierarchy is a thing. They have this in this hardwired notion of hierarchy. So they don't step out of line of it. And, and so when the hierarchy tells them, this is what's going on, they might like share a knowing look with each other, but they're like, yeah, I guess, I, I guess he's clothed, you know, we're good. And then the, and the little boys, you know, he's the autistic one. He's like, look at these, now he's nude. And it's, and this story is so often presented as like, oh, this is a story about these clever tailors, but it's about the autistic kid, you know, the kid who would have been fired for being too honest. 

Tim 46:42
Exactly. 

Sol 46:42
Exactly. 

Tim 46:45
Yeah. I, I use that actually as an example, quite, quite frequently because most people have heard the, the, the tale and yeah, yeah, it's true. 

Sol 46:55
It's like, thank goodness. There's some autistic people around once in a while to actually say, excuse me, but this is a flippin disaster. You, you had a, 

a group meeting and group thing took over and you came up with the stupidest idea ever because you all agreed with the boss because we can't disagree with the boss. 

Tim 47:13
And the boss was totally wrong. 

Sol 47:15
Right. Right. Exactly. And, um, you know, so it's no wonder, well, I don't want to get too political with it, but, um, you could see why it would be beneficial for, uh, any political party who wanted to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. Um, to, uh, put the little boys who had pointed out all in a camp together, get them out of the, get them out of the picture, you know, um, try to get those, those pesky people who don't fall in line very easily. Push them to the side. Um, but yeah, it's, so yeah, I see what you're saying. And obviously, yeah, there's, I'll, I'll get people asking me questions like, well, do you think that, that bipolar is a type of, of, of neurodivergence? And I go, I am not qualified to answer that question at all. Like, you know, like I've, I've, I've read studies about, you know, brain scans of autistic people and brain scans of ADHD people. Um, and I, you know, I guess that machine learning can identify up to seven subtypes of autism, just looking at the brain. But that doesn't mean that what we don't know about a brain, um, is much more than what we know. Right. You know, I always like to say the brain is only going to tell us enough about itself as it wants to. Um, we're using a brain to study itself. And so we have no idea what it's going to say. Um, yeah, but that's, that's a good way of putting it because they do have this, I'm basically, they do share this context, you know, um, if, if we're, if we're to go into the sort of neural pruning type, um, uh, philosophy of it that they tend to sort of adapt to each other's nature and then the autistic adapts somewhat, but not all the way, you know? 

Tim 48:53
Um, yeah. 

Sol 48:55
And I think that's the same of other varying groups of what we would from the medical community call the neurodistinct. 

Tim 49:04
Yeah. No, I can see that. Yeah. 

Sol 49:06
And yeah, I think we, we overcount the way I like to look at the neurotypical, uh, norm is a, that it's a norm. It's not a, a neurotype and people just align with it closely or more or less closely in any given circumstance. 

Tim 49:24
Right. 

Sol 49:25
But I, I, I also, uh, think that it, it is totally a shared experience, which is why there's so much assumption. Because the assumption is that there is this thing and, and the thing is nothing but what probably created culture that we came together from being hunter gatherers in little tribes. Right. Was this bringing together of, oh, we, we, we, we can agree on these things. 

Tim 49:56
Well, geez, let's, let's work together on these things. 

Sol 49:59
Yeah. I mean, ultimately, you know, just the term, uh, neurotypical is not, it's not a handy term to use. There's no reason for it unless you're talking about it in relationship to something else. So it'd be, you know, it only becomes handy. If you're talking about autism, you say autism and those without it or ADHD and those without it, like it, it only becomes handy in those, in those contexts. And so in, you know, in that sense, it's like a brain that developed typically when compared to someone with autism or a brain that developed typically when compared to ADHD or brains that, you know, describe the person whose autistic traits fall below a certain threshold. So, yeah, ultimately it's, it's in and of itself, the term just is, is pretty meaningless. So, yeah, I think it's just a shared norm. Yeah. When you look at it as a shared norm, it also starts making sense why people from some particular cultures that are very different than, we're in America here. So then the American culture. Right. Why they are seen as not fitting into the culture very well. Right. And they, they could be not a neuro distinct in any manner, but their culture of views and philosophy and such does not align well with the American version of a neurotypical norm. Right. And, you know, yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, I work, working in the tech industry, I work with people from around the world all the time. Major global company. And it is very, very much that people from different cultures have a different version of what norm should look like. 

Tim 51:49
Right. 

Sol 51:50
Right. So that's why kind of what led me into the thinking of neurotypical isn't a neurotype. Neurotypical is a shared cohesive group. And the thing that I'd say about neurotypical is that the people who are attracted to that group tend to be very persuasive. Yeah. So they're able to spread. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the cultural observation is good because like my kids who are all, you know, on the spectrum, they tend to get along with the kids at their school who are from different cultures. The exchange students, the first generation students, because any awkwardness between them can be chalked up to a cultural difference. It's not, you know, that they're just odd or they're just they're just weird. It's that, you know, well, they're American and, you know, I'm from Argentina or whatever. So it's easy to that. They have to bridge communication issues. They have to bridge behavioral issues. So it works out better. And I try to explain, you know, masking and whatnot to because people will be like, well, now that you know you have that communication problem, can't you just fix it? And no, like if you go to Japan, you're still going to be an American and you can try to fit their manners and their culture. But you're going to screw up. You're going to step out of line. And you're going to look awkward doing it. People are going to snicker at you when you do things a little off. You know, you're going to stick out like a sore thumb. So it's not a matter of of of just fixing it. One of my favorite examples is Victorian England that they in the big, nice, rich families of Victorian England. They had 142 different types of utensils to use at dinner. And they each did something different. Right. But you were raised with this. So it became hardwired in your head. What which utensils are for what? So now if your daughter is being courted by some guy and he comes over for dinner, you can tell if he's old money or not by if he knows how to use which utensils utensils. Because it's hard to learn that because it's hard to learn that as an adult. But if you grew up with it, then he would be very fluent in utensil. And that way you don't have to ask the question. You just see how well he fits into your culture where, you know, just right there. And yeah, autistics, they just don't fit into the culture of the neurotypical. 

F1 S3 54:19
Yeah. Except when you're with a whole group of autistics, in which case we get along and communicate and socialize just wonderfully together. 

Sol 54:27
Right. Right. And when a neurotypical walks in, they think that they've walked into a foreign alternate universe. Yeah. 

So there's a case where the neurotypical norm is not the traditional neurotypical norm. The neurotypical norm is actually more of a autistic style because the majority of people are in that setting are autistic. 

Tim 54:58
Right, right. 

Sol 55:00
So that's where using the definition is just being like a political party. It's a coalition of shared agreement and values. And you can join it as much or as deeply as you want or not want. But because it's seen as being the norm, there are societal benefits to aligning more closely with it if you are comfortable. Right. You mentioned masking. 

Tim 55:33
Yeah. And this is one of the things that, 

I don't know, how would I put it? 

Sol 55:41
Some autistic individuals I've run across, and this is true across, I think, a lot of the neurodistinct spectrum of all different conditions, but it's more prevalent. I think autism is where neurodiversity started from. I also think it's one of the more challenging of the conditions because it's a further outlier in how we process things than a lot of others. 

And I will often hear from people saying that, well, I'm autistic and this is just the way I am, and the rest of the world just needs to accept it. 

Which, if I created my own world, I would probably put that rule in. I think that would be a good rule to put in if I could create my own world. But unfortunately, I didn't get to create this world. I have to take the one that I was given. And I think that there are 

essentially instincts. As humans, we don't think of humans as having instincts, particularly. 

Tim 56:40
Right. Yeah. 

Sol 56:41
But if you buy into the evolution theory of how we got here, well, why would instincts suddenly disappear when we went one thing past the bonobos and chimpanzees? Right. That does not make sense. And there's lots of behaviors we see amongst humans that you could say are instinctual. 

Tim 57:01
Right. 

Sol 57:01
Most people, when they see a snake, jump. That's just kind of like it's hardwired into you, snake. 

And 

to me, there's also cultural norms. 

Tim 57:17
Uh-huh. 

Sol 57:18
I think you can get most people to accept that there are other cultures and other ways to look at it. And if it's a cultural-based norm, then you can probably get away with being the way you want to be if you're with somebody that's willing to be open-minded enough to accept that there's other cultures and other ways to approach things. 

Tim 57:41
Right. But I think there's instinctual norms that are just cooked into us. Yeah. 

Sol 57:45
And for instance, 

again, communication's a big thing for me. The sound of people's voice and how they sound when they speak. 

We as humans, or a lot of humans, I stink at it to be honest with you, but deduce out of the sound of how you speak, not the words. 

Tim 58:08
And we make value judgments before our brain even processes the words. 

Sol 58:12
And there are science studies to prove that your emotional areas have already lit up just from the sound of somebody before they process the words. Right. Which is also why singers can move you emotionally. It's not the words that are usually moving you. It's the way they deliver the sound that has the emotional content. Right. And to me, that's hardwired into a person. So just to say, well, this is the way I am, and I learn to talk monotone and just talk this way, and I go really fast, and I don't use comms, and I don't use periods, and I don't use anything about total monotone. Well, great, if you want to be not well accepted and understood and want people to go, oh, they're just like, they're not very interesting to listen to. They're just like dull and dry, because that's the assumption they If they sounded like that, it would mean they're disengaged. They're not. 

So I have this struggle with masking of when is it masking, and when is it recognizing that the world works a certain way, and you can buck the trend if you want to, but if you want to have life go easier, there are some certain things that are just the way things are. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess that just, it depends on if it's exhausting you or not, I guess. 

Just like, 

for example, you know, like you said about some things just being possibly instinctive, the eye contact thing is really big, right? 

That autistics tend to have trouble with eye contact. Not all of them do, but some of them do. And basically, it takes a lot of energy to fake eye contact. You have to be very aware that you're faking this eye contact. But it turns out they've done these studies that we also fake eye contact wrong, that we're doing it too much. Right, right. 

Tim 1:00:10
We look creepy. Yeah, yeah. 

Sol 1:00:13
And so even that will, like, set people on edge and be like, I don't know what it is about him. That's so weird. And, like, that can, you know, damage your job. So it's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't sometimes, where we just kind of need to educate everybody more about, like, look, he's autistic. And the eye contact thing, you're just going to have to overlook this. But even then, they may not know that that's what's bothering them, you know? Right, that's the problem is it's a subconscious thing. So they don't recognize why it is that they're not warming up to this person. They just know that they're not warming up to this person. 

Tim 1:00:49
And if you actually ask them, they probably couldn't point to what it was. Yeah, they'll say there's just something about him. 

Sol 1:00:57
Yeah, just, they just didn't, I don't know, it's just, I've heard the definition. It just seemed like talking to cardboard. 

Tim 1:01:07
Yeah, yeah. They didn't get the emotional cues back that they were expecting to have to have a human engagement. Right, right. 

Sol 1:01:16
And that's one of the things that I say we can learn to do. And it's not exhausting to do it. It's recognizing that this is the pattern of speaking. And it really deals more with the sounds than it deals with the words you're using. Although a recommendation is don't use PhD type words unless you're talking to other PhDs because you'll get the you're an arrogant jerk response. 

Tim 1:01:45
Yeah, yeah. 

Sol 1:01:46
Because you made me feel stupid because you use big words I don't understand. So obviously, it's not me that's the problem. You are an arrogant jerk. Right, right. No, that's, I mean, it's a good question. I think to some degree, you know, some people will be able to learn things better than others for that kind of thing. 

But still, it just kind of seems like a like a like education is needed for everybody to to be more accepting of, of those differences. 

Yeah, to think about it. 

Tim 1:02:16
Yeah, it's interesting to think about it. It's a lot like. 

Sol 1:02:20
Manners. Yeah, or something. Oh, yeah. I don't know if we teach them much as kids anymore. But we used to teach them when you and I were young. 

Tim 1:02:27
Manners were something you were taught all the time. 

Sol 1:02:30
Right, right. I mean, yeah, I definitely, you know, always have a napkin on my lap whenever I eat just like, like it's hardwired in my head. And yeah, I've just I've noticed that lots of people don't do that. And that kind of weirds me out. 

Tim 1:02:43
Yeah, So it seems to me that some of these things are, it falls back to the assumptions that a lot of people make about things, that we haven't codified any of these 

Sol 1:02:58
So we don't know that we should teach to somebody that if you don't give. And I had the good fortune of studying with one of the top vocal coaches in the world. And I also had a good fortune to study with an acclaimed Broadway actor. And it totally changed my communication. I was stereotypical. I was monotone and I went really fast and I ran all the words together and I sounded like most geeks that were talking. And I was really boring to listen to. It was bad. 

And once I was trained and taught how to put emotional sounds into my voice and engage with people, 

my interactions with most humans improved orders of magnitude. And it's not that it did anything for me because I still can't pick up their emotional cues, it gave them what they needed, which was the sense of humanity coming across to them. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, I mean, certainly like there are some tools we can pick up. They're going to be handier than others. And, you know, to some degree we do socialize to some degree. Like, you know, we're in some of that shared culture. I always point out to a classroom that, you know, we've all been socialized at least enough to, to we all decided to wear clothes this morning, you know, none of us were, none of us were like, ah, screw it. I hate wearing clothes. I'm done. You know, like, it's just like some things we just accept as completely normal. And, uh, we don't recognize that this, you know, it, some kids, it takes a while. It takes a while to get them to, you're going to wear clothes every day. Some people, it's going to take years before you can get a kid to wash themselves regularly. Years. 

Tim 1:04:37
Yeah. 

Sol 1:04:38
You know, and, and yet as adults, most of us just do. Um, so yeah, some of these things are very hard to, to impart and, uh, yeah. Wouldn't end up being handy. 

Tim 1:04:48
Yeah. 

Sol 1:04:48
Yeah. I think a lot of them are, are things that most people could easily learn, but we don't teach it. It's just part of the assumed fabric of being human. 

Tim 1:05:02
Right. Which means for a lot of us, it's not part of who we are and it needs to be taught to us explicitly. 

Sol 1:05:10
Well, and, and, and, you know, a good first step would be when we're much younger, if they would teach emotional intelligence, um, that would probably help everybody out a lot. 

Tim 1:05:20
I don't know. I struggle with the idea of emotional intelligence and yeah, maybe this is the autistic approach of why I struggle. Maybe so. It's not the concept of emotional 

Sol 1:05:29
It's, it's more maybe the terminology of emotional intelligence. 

Tim 1:05:33
Okay. 

Sol 1:05:34
Okay. Because EQ came from the idea of IQ, right? 

Tim 1:05:39
Right. Right. 

Sol 1:05:40
Well, do we think we can change your IQ? Now we can teach you new skills. We can teach you more knowledge, but do we think we can actually increase your IQ? And the general accepted thought is no, you got the brain power you got. That's what you, that's what you were given. And now we can work on finesse and giving you a greater body of knowledge and all those things, but you still only have so much processing horsepower there. 

Tim 1:06:07
Sure. Yeah. 

Sol 1:06:08
So why is it that we think that we can teach EQ? 

If EQ is truthfully a thing like IQ, that you have a certain amount of intelligence in the emotional area, what we can teach you is more context and such, but we can't actually increase your EQ and quotient. I agree with you that, that the quotient thing is probably ridiculous, but I think that what they could do is, I like to think about Mr. Rogers. I think that like, we could learn how to handle and deal with our emotions instead of sticking sticking with the way that we're very heavily socialized, especially within our gender roles 

to deal with emotions or to hide them. And I think that that would probably go a really long way as far as getting people to be more open with each other. But, but I haven't thought about it very much, but I do think there's just a lot to unlearn about the way that a lot of people handle emotions. But you're right. I think as far as understanding them, the, you know, the intelligence quotient, I don't think that that's going to go up or down very much. Like, you know, when people say, oh, but you can feel the emotion in your body. I didn't know that was literal. 

Tim 1:07:22
Yeah. I have a funny story about that one is. 

Sol 1:07:27
Well, back when I was diagnosed at the same time, I was reading a book by Dr. Robert Skayr. And Dr. Robert Skayr was actually an emergency room doctor here in Denver, at Denver General, which is known as the Gun and Knife Club. 

And late in his career, he decided to become a psychiatrist. I don't know why you go from being an emergency room doctor to a psychiatrist. I don't know, but he did. And he had written a book. And in his book, his idea is that emotions are stored as sensations in your body. And it goes further than that. But so I read that and I walk out into the living room as I'd been sitting in my office reading this. And I walk out into the living room and go to my wife and say, are emotions like body sensations? And she just cracks up laughing. 

And she goes, yes. And I go, 

huh, that's weird. I don't connect. She comes over and gives me a hug and she says, well, there, what did you feel? And I said, well, I felt like body warmth and I felt pressure. And I was supposed to feel love. It's what I was supposed to feel. But my brain processes the sensory input, but I'm convinced there's what I would refer to as a meta process that goes on between our sensory portions and our brain that in a lot of people translates that warmth and pressure in such of a hug and says to you, oh, that's love. You're being loved. 

Tim 1:09:08
And in our brain, our brain goes, oh, that's warmth. And gosh, my wife feels good. 

Sol 1:09:16
Yeah. Yeah. And for me, it's like it can be somewhat somatic, like, oh, it's constricting my blood vessels. So my heart's being tricked into thinking that I'm calmer than I am. Right, right. So it's focused on the sensation without something that's translating and telling your brain that it means some kind of emotional state. And I think that we have this meta sense And I call it a meta sense because I'm guessing just from our conversation and what I read about you, your five senses work within the normal range of five senses. 

Tim 1:09:51
Right, right. 

Sol 1:09:53
So we don't have a deficiency in our sense. It's not that we can't feel things and see and taste and smell and all the senses. It's that somehow those signals don't translate into saying to our brain, that's fear. That's love. Yeah, right. That's 

Tim 1:10:11
That's, our brain just says, oh, your heart's beating harder. 

Sol 1:10:16
Yeah, yeah. And maybe it's like being almost hyper aware, you know, looking at all the different things that you're feeling, you know, excited and scared and worried and sad. And all these things are happening at once. 

Tim 1:10:31
How do you boil it down to one? 

Sol 1:10:33
Right. So my brain just doesn't translate it. So I don't know what I'm feeling. So I always say, never ask me what I feel about something. Ask me what I think. And I can tell you tons. 

Tim 1:10:42
Yeah, yeah. There you go. 

Sol 1:10:45
Yeah. Well, wonderful. This has been enjoyable and I could chat with you for hours. Yeah. It's the, I say, traditional two autistics get together and there's enough common interest that we could go down rabbit holes for days on end. 

Tim 1:11:02
Right. 

Sol 1:11:04
And thoroughly enjoy it too. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. 

But, unfortunately, people do have schedules and all that and we want to listen to the wisdom of our conversations here. There you go. We'll get to know you a little bit. So we will call this time that we should probably wrap up. So if somebody wanted to reach out and contact you or find your book or those kinds of things, what's, what's the best way for them to get ahold of you and find where to get your book and all that kind of good stuff? Probably the easiest is professorsoul.com and that's just like it sounds professor and then soul is sol, one word, professorsoul.com. Perfect. Yeah. That's kind of home base. Perfect. Well, I will add that into the show notes. So in case somebody can't manage to spell professor. There you go. Without autofraction, we'll help them out over that a little bit. 

Tim 1:12:01
Yeah. Yeah. 

Sol 1:12:02
Well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me and you've been a great conversation companion. I've enjoyed it immensely. And I think our listeners are going to have a good time getting to know you a little bit. 

Tim 1:12:17
Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, you're more than welcome. 

Sol 1:12:21
We hope that you've enjoyed another episode of Life in a Neurotypical Universe. Please, if you enjoyed this, share it with your friends. Go take their phone and subscribe them. It will help us all out. If you want to know more about neurodiversity or have any questions for me, you can reach me at my website, timgoldstein.com, where I'll be more than glad to help you as best I can to navigate through the neurotypical universe. Thank you. Thank you.